Wednesday, August 25th, 2010 - the wee small hours of insomnia
But to quote the great unwashed hippy and legendary art school dropout, John Lennon, in his classic 1970s' peace ditty "Imagine", "...nothing to kill or die for and no religion too". Basically that song's preaching a lot of tree-hugging stuff about how if we didn't have nationalism and possessions and religion, the world just might be a better, more harmonious place.
Personally, I think that's a bit of crazy, idealist claptrap, but the bare bones of truth are there. Those things do create disharmony in the world because we abuse them.
So yes. Religion. Religion is not your friend.
That's a general "you", not a personal "you". You, yourself might be religious. Your faith might make your life more inspiring or a calmer place to be. If it helps you in some small way, who am I to tell you otherwise? I wouldn't dream of it.
But generally, in the grand scheme of matters, I stand by my statement: religion is not your friend. At least organized religion is not your friend. Organized religion was never meant to be your friend. It was invented to control you. To give you guilt. To stop you questioning.
But generally, in the grand scheme of matters, I stand by my statement: religion is not your friend. At least organized religion is not your friend. Organized religion was never meant to be your friend. It was invented to control you. To give you guilt. To stop you questioning.
Answer me this. If there really was a God, would there be "Two and a Half Men"? No. You can bet your sweet ass there would not.
The thing is, in its purest form, religion is supposed to be your friend. It's supposed to be about unity, about peace, about kindness and sharing, about goodwill to all men. It's supposed to promote community and working together for a better world, acceptance, tolerance and understanding.
But it isn't. It isn't about any of that. Because we've all made it about hate. And intolerance. And war, hatred and segregation and then we go and justify all of those nasty traits in its name.
It's a man-made hate machine that separates people, that teaches superiority, judgement and fear over people who're not like us. We took something that was meant to be pure and corrupted it to suit our needs.
Soon we'll do the same to Justin Bieber. It's what we do.
I know I'm biased. I'm an unabashed Atheist. But unlike most unabashed atheists, I have actually read the Bible. I read it because I wanted to know what it was saying, what it was about and because if I choose to not believe something I want to know what it is I'm rejecting. And I came to the only conclusion I can imagine anyone coming to. It's a big book, written over centuries, by a lot of different people, reporting fables and stories by hearsay. There are hints on how to live a better life. A more noble life. It's not meant to be taken literally. Yet people use its stories to justify their prejudices. Except the bible doesn't tell you to hate women, or homosexuals, or other religions, or foreigners, or to kill your neighbours and take their land. Yet people do these things in its name every day.
I'm looking at you, Fred Phelps, you ignorant fucknugget. Among others.
I have not read the holy books of any other religions. I imagine them to be of similar ideas. My knowledge of religion in general is basic, but I do know this. It causes undue distress and trauma to the world. Wars start because of it, people hate other people for no reason other than their religious affiliation and countless innocent six year olds have to endure really boring stories in Sunday School when they'd much rather be knee deep in a sand pit with some Legos.
Back in ancient Greek and Roman times, people believed in divinity. They had Gods and Goddesses for everything. If you sneezed there was probably a God for it. If ancient Greeks are to be believed there were deities crowding the skies with their golden wings, bringing everything to the masses, from thunder to love. The heavens were a veritable traffic jam of godlike beings swishing through the clouds carrying exquisitely wrapped gifts of wisdom. We laugh at this notion because we know it's only fable. Yet today people still freely accept there's an omnipotent presence up there looking out for us.
Because that's so much more sensible.
This is what I think. Life is up to us. It's what we make it. God isn't going to make your life better or worse, you are. If you survive a horrific car wreck, it's through bold faced luck and your sheer tenacity. God didn't save you. You are not that remarkable. If somehow I'm wrong, and He exists, you can bet your ass He has more pressing things to do than snatch you from the dripping jaws of death. It's just life. It's not divine interference.
If it was up to me I'd banish it all and make us all one giant melting pot of humanity. Then everyone would need to come up with another reason for their intolerance of anyone not like themselves. Maybe then they'd have to figure out their real issues for once and for all.
Ugh. Religion. Thought that was what was missing in my life so I tried the Mormons out. The whole 'no sex before marriage thing' really worked for me. But good golly miss molly. Stalkers. Put me under too much pressure and made me pee myself a little. Any time someone talks religion now, I hide under my bed.
ReplyDeleteI've often thought religion is the cause of all major conflicts... each side hell bent on imposing their religious views and way of worship on the other, losing sight of the underlying principle of all religions - Treat others the way you would like to be treated. That is all.
ReplyDeleteRe, “I think that's a bit of crazy, idealist claptrap”: Why don’t you some out and say what you mean? All this mealy mouthed stuff leaves me thinking, “So what’s she getting at?”
ReplyDeleteBy the way, what’s a fucknugget?
You added a great closing paragraph to an already witty and well thought through post. Excellent stuff!!!
All the best, Boonie
I grew up in a fairly strict Catholic household and go to church for ceremonies (weddings, funerals or because it's cool and I'm checking it out for architectural reasons). However, I'm still Christian at heart, and do believe in God.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Christian, it does not mean I disrespect anyone's right to believe in what they want (well, except killing animals or humans for sake of one's religion, )I just believe in God and Jesus Christ.
I do not believe religion makes a person any better, in fact, I've met some church going people who wouldn't know how to be charitable if their life depended upon it. Many practicing Catholics can also be mean spirited and have a heart the size of the Grinch.
For many, a religious figure gives them a sense of comfort if they are afraid of the unknown and dying.
For me, it's how I was raised. Nothing more or less.
I'm glad you pointed out that religion is the cause of wars. So very true.
I never discuss politics or religion with people I first meet. Everyone has a personal belief and I judge people on how they treat others and that is how I'd like to be judged.
I have read the Bible too. I studied it for MANY years. For I was a DEVOUT Christian. I went to a CHRISTIAN college. I took Bible courses.
ReplyDeleteAnd I've come to the same conclusion.
The Bible reminds me of fairy tales.
And would God allow Sarah Palin to travel around America spewing her words?
Me thinks not.
Where is Voldemort when you need him?
Amanda: Ugh, that's the thing with organized religion. They're not about you and your needs or your faith or your own sense of tranquility at all. Why should you follow rules that some group has invented and worship in their church when you can have your own beliefs with you wherever you are. Maybe no one is for you, just follow your own rules of faith. Gosh look at me being all wisey.
ReplyDeleteNat: Yep, you about said it all right there. You don't have to be religious to be good and there are plenty religious people who are bad. People know right from wrong, good from bad, religion is irrelevant to that.
Boonie: Ha, like I think these things through. They just enter my brain and leave through my fingertips a second later. For the record I didn't mean the Lennon thing was claptrap, I agree with him but it's not that cut and dry. I don't think we should all be devoid of possessions and pride, just that we get them in perspective you know?
Little Ms. B: That's what I mean, everyone is free to believe whatever they want. I have no problem with anyone being religious, if it's what helps them and what they believe. I object to man made rules about these things though and people using their religion to justify their irrational hatred and prejudices. Not ALL people, obviously. But you know what I mean. "This is wrong because the bible says so" that kind of thing. Ask most people to show you where in the bible it says these things and I'll bet they can't.
Jules: Hahaha right, Sarah Palin is Satan therefore, if she exists maybe for the sake of balance, God must too. :) People just need to be civilized and respectful. You don't need God to tell you that!
Excellent Post.
ReplyDeleteThank you Mr. Savior. It was originally twice as long but man, it even put ME to sleep! :)
ReplyDeleteLike like like like! :)
ReplyDeleteHa! You know Mo, I thought you would.
ReplyDeleteSadly I was taken to church as a child, well that was until I started eating a kit kat once.
ReplyDeleteI've just never understood the whole God made Adam and Eve shizzle bizzle, how did the rest of us get here without incest?
Well, if people think something is fact because the bible says so ...then I'm screwed. People will believe I'm the devil because I HATE to clean.
ReplyDeleteCatholic, which I was... until I reached the age of reason.
ReplyDeleteWas interesting while it lasted. I made it through my early teens going to 'sunday school' to which I never got the point. I just dislike dogma. I want my hot dog on friday, and unless you provide a darn good reason, I'm eating it. Nice and simple. I figure since there is no burning bushes telling me otherwise, I must not be doing all that bad.
The religion I preach now is: "Don't be a dick." Nice and straight forward. Not sure it'll get you in to heaven, but it will sure help you not get there so fast.
Is it sad that I read over this, and was nodding and agreeing, and then the entire topic of the post went away when I read the word "fucknugget"? I thought I was the only person who ever used that. You, missy, are going on my daily reading list. :D
ReplyDeleteI'm sort of a Christian-leaning, spiritualesque agnostic. Which basically means no church really welcomes me. And you know what? I don't care! Because in what holy book did it ever say that you have to get up at the ass crack of dawn to worship??
ReplyDeleteOrganized religion is like the mob without guns. Or, at the very least, it's like a horrible game of "telephone." By the time the message gets to its intended audience, it's completely effed up.
John Lennon was right all along. Who knew?
ReplyDeleteWell said. I am not a fan of organized religion but I do consider myself spiritual. I would have loved to study philosophy in school with a focus on comparative religion, just because there are some pretty fascinating concepts in the different spiritual traditions that, when studied in a context where the need for power and control has been neutralized, can actually be quite interesting. - G
ReplyDeleteMy feeling is it's not who, how, or where you believe; it's how you live your life. Kudos on an excellent post.
ReplyDeletePreach on Veg. Preach on. I'm totally with you on everything single thing you said in this post.
ReplyDelete"Soon we'll do the same to Justin Bieber. It's what we do." Ahhhhh, you slay me!!!!
ReplyDeleteHee hee.
I totally agree with your brilliant post; I feel a spirituality inside of me that dictates I lead a certain life that excludes hatred, intolerance and embrace differences, good character and kindness...Life is a daily choice=happiness, our responses, our values, etc. are based on our perceptions of ourselves and our limited vision of the world...In my opinion, religion is a man made myth to control and provides people with a scapegoat for their predjudice=you are right on with that!...Hope you have a great day, thanks for your outspoken beliefs, I appreciate your open minded opinions.
ReplyDeleteAmen! (er...I mean great post!)
ReplyDeleteActually, I disagree on one point. I think that most athiests HAVE read the Bible and often many other religious texts. In my case, growing up in a gothic strict Catholic household, I simply had to do some research when shit stopped making sense. I would guess that many athiests have a much more well-rounded education about the religions of the world.
ReplyDeleteAlso, fucknugget is my new fave word.
Dreich: A couple of hours in church would be greatly improved with KitKats, man! Mmmm. I worship THOSE!
ReplyDeleteLittle Ms.: Are there people who LIKE to clean? What's that about?
Lord of Madness: I agree. And I don't even consider that religion, that's just logic and general consideration. You don't need to be spiritual to know right from wrong, you know? And the dogma IS ridiculous. Rules about what you can do and when? I sincerely doubt God sat down with a notepad and wrote that a person must eat fish on Friday or worship him on Sundays.
Andy: You know, one probably shouldn't mix one's religious talk with fucknuggets but sometimes it's just necessary! Also, is it just me or do fucknuggets sound like something you'd get at Wendy's with a large fries?
BeckEye: Dude really. All this crap about stuff you can't do on Sundays because it's the Lord's day. What the hell? Jewish people have Saturdays. I'm sure millions of different religions have other days of similar reverence. Man made rules don't make religion. I think if you're a religious person it's something within you that dictates certain things about you. No guy with a funny hat and set of rules is going to say, "Condoms are bad!" and announce that God said so. I hardly think God cares if He's there. He's probably got stocks in them himself!
Sarah: I know, IMAGINE that. See what I did there? Man, I'm sharp.
ReplyDeleteGeorgina: I think a lot of people are like you and I also think that that is what religion is, more than people who dress up on Sunday and go to Church for an hour then don't think about it again till the next Sunday. The people I know who've studied religious philosophy and religions in general, have, strangely enough all been agnostic or atheist.
Eva: I think you said it all right there. It's a personal thing, not a mob mentality thing. Do people think the Bible and other holy texts just came from God? Guys sat down and wrote them. Other guys made up a set of rules from it and we then go and take it as the absolute truth.
Nicole: Hahaha, I should start talking in a Southern accent and yelling "Hallelujah!" and maybe trying to heal people. :)
Cora: Well you know, he's this little squeaky clean kid who's going to get his ass all Kardasianed until he emerges full of piercings, pouting and expensive drug habits. :)
Jacqueline: Thank you! I agree with you. It always puzzles me how people who, for example, think it's perfectly alright to actively spread their hate against gay people or boycott the funerals of young soldiers who die in combat because they were gay or practiced some other behavior they have deemed "against God". It boils my blood. Where is the tolerance? Even if you intrinsically do not agree with something like homosexuality, surely religion should be about tolerance and attempted understanding of it, regardless. Of being kind despite your opposition? Where does it justify hate rallies at a person's funeral? It makes me sick.
Brutalism: I knew someone had to say it, lady. I'd have had many of my odds on you. :)
Crannki: You may indeed be right, I only know a couple of Atheists myself and they haven't but clearly I haven't polled all of them. :) I do think that Atheists may well have researched matters more because all your life you're told one thing and to come to a totally different conclusion on your own, well, there has to be a reason for it, right?
Hoo-boy! You are missing all the fun here in NYC with the whole Ground-Zero Mosque thing that's going on. High-kicking, I tell you!
ReplyDeletePS- Without religion we'd find another way to hate each other. Plenty of social experiments prove that.. give kids different color shirts to wear and they quickly band together and start Lord of the Flying each other. Sad but it's human nature.
Oh yeah, I'm sure we would, but it wouldn't be in the name of some God either. I am aware of all the WTC stuff. I actually had a paragraph in this post about it but removed it as things were getting too long. :) My thoughts is, you can't allow churches and synagogues to be down there and then say "YOU cannot have your Mosque". That's blatantly unfair. It's not choosing high school basketball teams. Everyone should be afforded the same right. So Muslim terrorists took down the towers, I'm pretty sure innocent Muslims were killed too. I'm sure Muslims were as horrified as anyone else. The whole thing's ludicrous. If the mosque does get built it's only going to get vandalized anyway. It's sad. They need to ban ALL religious structures from being built around there. There's really no need for it. Is my opinion. :)
ReplyDeleteYes, I did pen the sentence starting "My thoughts is..." because grammar is not my friend either today. :)
ReplyDeleteAgreed, excellent post. Religon and I parted ways long ago.
ReplyDeleteCheers!
Same here Froggie. Well to be honest, I was never religious, even as a little kid. Maybe it was a sixth sense? :)
ReplyDeleteYeah. My religious upbringing consisted of a few years of Sunday School, followed by the occasional "Jesus Christ, watch what you're doing!" after my dad put his foot down about where he'd prefer to be on Sunday mornings (and since my Mom didn't drive, that was all of us off the hook!), and I can't say I miss it, particularly. I do sometimes get all wistful for the sense of community I see in some of my churchgoing acquaintances, but in general I'm good with doing my own thing and eschewing any form of extremism greater than, say, preferring my coffee kickass strong.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Carlin's bit on religious bullshit sums it all up nicely for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o (the first 1:15 is the part I'm thinking of).
It slays me, too, that people forget, in their fervor, that the Bible - well, all religious texts, really - was written by human beings. By men, actually, since women weren't allowed to be literate at the time. And by a select few men, since not all men were literate, either. And that those men might have had agendas to present in the writing, because when you're the writer, you can say whatever the fuck you like. And also that it was, by and large, written as ALLEGORY, not as historical fact. (Seven days to create the world, for instance.)
That said, I absolutely respect anyone's decision to engage in organized religion - and I have numerous friends who are thus engaged. But it's something we don't much discuss, just as I don't discuss being childless with my friends who have children.
My mom tried her very best to raise me catholic, and I kind of crushed her heart a bit when I announced I wasn't going to get confirmed, nor attend church anymore because I just didn't believe in it.
ReplyDeleteMy form of religion now is "Let's just all be kind to each other".
I love this post! I feel the same way about religion. Even if I did believe in God or some higher power, I couldn't participate in organized religion because of its use to essentially abuse people.
ReplyDeleteI also like how you dismantled illogical notions that God has been at work. It's good that you've read the bible and know your stuff too! Your blog is so good!
i just read this article about how atheists are among the most hated in america.
ReplyDeletehttp://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheitsHated.htm
i guess people don't care what you believe in as long as you believe in something, but then of course sneer at you for not believing what they believe.
C&S: I really can't add to that, dude. You said it all. You always do.
ReplyDeleteSkypop: Damn right. That's about all the religion people need when you think about it.
Loveable H: That's the thing. You should believe in whatever you like and it should enrich your life somehow and not encroach on anyone else's. So good for you!
Joey: I think some people just hear the word "Atheist" and equate it with "evil" or some kind of deviance. It doesn't mean someone's bad just because they don't believe in God. We still know how to act, what's right and wrong, good and bad. You're right, people just assume if you don't believe what they do, you're something to be avoided. :)
This entire post could have been written almost word for word by my bff Rachel: The bible wielding atheist.
ReplyDeleteShe debates Christians for the fun of it. It's scary and amusing all at once.
I've banned her from religious discussions with The Grandmother though. I just don't need the headache. I could just hear it: "That lesbian girlfriend of yours thinks she can talk to ME about Jesus! I'm going to get my 410 and pump her full of the holy light AND THEN I'm going to have you committed."
Or something really close to that.
Meh. I honestly don't give a shit about religion anymore. I worry about what I should tell my kid sometimes, but other than that - I've got more pressing matters to think about. Like my car payment or being abstinent for 8 months. No wonderful god would do that to a deserving vagina.
Amen.
Veg, have you seen 'Religulous'? A doco so worth watching all about this issue - oh and its friggin hilarious!
ReplyDeleteI agree with all you say on this. Only thing I do have issues with are when you get the hard line athiests going OTT on the subject - people like Richard Dawkins - whom I very much agree with in theory - but his almost evangical way of 'preaching' atheism is just as bad as any right wing bible basher. Wrecks my head.
I'm with Richard Dawkins when it comes to religion.
ReplyDeleteI preferred the Greek/Roman model. No boring morality tales--just gods/goddesses getting pissed off or jealous and hurling thunder bolts at each other or turning people into animals. I loved the Greek gods. I always wanted to be Artemis.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost, thanks for noticing my ass. It is pretty sweet, if I say so myself.
ReplyDeleteSecond, yes YES yes to what Robin said. What a bunch o' bull shit with the mosque. New York Magazine had a particularly nice article IMHO (http://nymag.com/news/features/67635/).
Third, *slurp*.
Ms. OWO: Exactly, there are more pertinent things to worry about. Like your bizness, naturally! Sort that out, girl! :)
ReplyDeleteJude: I HAVE seen "Religulous" actually and liked it. I was wary, what with it being Bill Maher and all as sometimes he's just a touch too radical for me, but he was pretty spot on there. I also think everyone should believe what they believe, proudly, but keep it to themselves and not try to convert people to their way of thinking. It's a personal belief after all.
Sadako: Totally! At least they made Deities fun and passionate, right? :) Artemis would be a kick ass name for a cat...
Elly: Well, one notices a fine ripe ass like that you know? And I am now going to read the mosque thing. Stupid religion!
How brave of you to make such an unapologetic post! Everything you wrote smacks of pure truth! You get the Pure Truth Smacker award for the day! No, for the year! No, for all eternity! Shit, don't even get me going on THAT concept...
ReplyDeleteGod: Yes, Richard has some fine ideas on the subject. I've yet to make it through "Everything You Know About God is Wrong" although I have it right here. Maybe, since you're God and all, you can give me the cliff notes version?
ReplyDeleteJacquie: I like anything that calls me a "smacker" of any sort. :) Do not disagree with me or I will bring out THE SMACKER! HA! Thank you!
ReplyDeleteI pretty much agree with you. I was raised essentially atheist and had to go to adult catechism to marry my wife without her being disowned. Funnily, we met in a college religion class called "Faith and Doubt." So I've done a little Bible studying.
ReplyDeleteI must play devil's advocate (ha ha) a bit though, and point out that organized religion may have achieved a few positive goals relating to societal control.
You know how a lot, if not most, people are basically assholes? Not you, or your friends or family, but, you know...people who vote for Prop 8, or leave their kids in the car while they go to the casino, or watch Fox News? Imagine if those people had absolutely no sense of self-abnegation or fear of retribution from a giant punisher in the sky. To some extent, their belief in some kind of god is all that keeps them from tearing us mamby-pamby, thoughtful, secular humanists limb-from-limb.
I have gone back and forth on my assessment of human nature, but for quite a while now, I have believed that many or most religious people would be nihilists without their faith. I think replacing all zealots with nihilists would make the world a little suckier on balance. Or maybe just a different kind of sucky. "Mad Max" sucky. We wouldn't stand a chance.
While I agree with that, I also think that religion excuses a lot of those assholic actions. Catholicism, for example, leads a person to believe that all you have to do is confess your sins and you've atoned for them. So there really isn't that much fear involved anymore. Say you're sorry to a priest and all is forgiven. There's a flaw in that, surely. I think we all need to believe in something more concrete. In ourselves, in humanity, in doing the right thing, not because some religious icon is supposedly telling us to but because we know that's the way to be.
ReplyDelete@Veg
ReplyDeleteYup. Religion absolutely gives a lot of people license to be assholes, or at least offers forgiveness after their asshole-y actions.
And I agree with you about what we *should* believe in.
But lately, I've felt that it's only fair to give organized religion (especially Catholicism, which, it can be argued, kind of babysat Europe from the Dark Ages to the Enlightenment) a little bit of credit, even if it's in a cynical way.
Of course, I'm just playing a game of speculation--what would the world have been like if it was every-man-for-himself rather than communities forming around crazy ideas of creatures in the ether who want us to act in certain ways. Maybe it would have turned out better without the creatures.
There was a great 20th century thinker named Kenneth Burke who posited that humanity is moving from a "magical" worldview (religion) to a "scientistic" one (enlightenment), and will eventually end up in a "poetic" or "humanistic" state. I hope he was right.
I agree with that too! But I think that Europe in the past has put too much faith and stock in religion, when really it's been dictated to about how to live and not all those decisions are good.
ReplyDeleteI don't get how something like Catholicism can make up its own ludicrous rules and tell people they're divine. No contraception? No sex before marriage? No meat on Fridays? Just examples of how religion is NOT meant to be used. Really, it should just be a general blanket of how to live your life. Don't take what isn't yours, don't kill, try to live a good life and help other people. It's gotten so distorted from that.
Beta Dad- You make an interesting point about the mouth-breathing masses who cling to their religion and their FOX news. I'm a person who couldn't be more opposed to all elements of religion and yet, when someone posed the question to me, "If you had the power to present the entire world with undeniable proof that there was no God, would you do it?" my answer was actually no.
ReplyDeleteThere are so many people for whom I think religion is the only thing that keeps them from doing "wrong" that to prove God doesn't exist would cause complete chaos. Which isn't to say religion does good per se, just that people fear it.
Anyway, getting pretty deep for a comment board.
VegAss - I think once again you've proven that your "unpopular" point of view is actually quite popular (at least with your readers). And I of course agree, with the notable exception that you've discredited John Lennon as idealistic claptrap. I think the Walrus was, as always, pretty bang on.
Johnson: The thing is I like John Lennon. And the Beatles. And I love "Imagine". And I don't disagree with what he said at all, it's just a little simplistic don't you think? It's taken at base level "What a great place we'd have if we had none of those things" but I'm not for having NO possessions or NO spirituality etc., it just needs to be put in some kind of perspective. It's grey, not black and white.
ReplyDeleteYou're right too that religion controls certain elements who otherwise might run amok, but I think generally, people who are assholes are going to be regardless.
Also, I haven't had any coffee today and I'm rambling and I don't understand my own head. :) A
i had to come back here and say exactly! exactly! i clearly remember being in school and my teacher scoffing at "the indians" and their crazy gods of everything. "that's because they didn't know about" so and such, she explained to the class who were all laughing. i said in my head, yeah and now look at all of you, believing in a man in the sky, fixing football games.
ReplyDeleteYou just have the most delightful way of putting things that cracks me up. I couldn't have said it better. :)
ReplyDeleteYou mean, the Football Gods don't really exist? Please! :)
ReplyDeleteOrganized religion is so primitive, but every now and again I'm surprised. I saw a TV interview once with a Christian woman and they asked her if she believed her religion was the only path to Heaven and she said "No, absolutely not." It was impressive, and made me think that if every religious person felt this way, we could have peace and everyone still have their religion.
I have always thought that the sins attributed to religion are sins that result from any organized human endeavor. But for some reason religion, because it purports to come from God, is held to a higher standard even though it is an institution of man. Likewise, I don't understand when people use the problems of religion as evidence that God doesn't exist. No human endeavor will be without fault, but that doesn't mean the endeavor has no merit.
ReplyDeleteI think humans hate and kill because it is human nature to hate and kill. And religion puts a lot more good in the world than a lot of things that inspire people to hate and kill.
And finally, I've never understood the argument that religion is about control. It sounds all good and rabble-rousy, but I always think to myself...to what end? What would be the benefit?
I believe in God, but I'm not particularly religious. I just see religion as a clear net good.
Gennifer: Yep I think the "organized" part is the real demon. Telling people HOW they should worship is just wrong.
ReplyDeleteWords: Well it's refreshing to have someone come from the opposite point of view. I actually agree with you about the people who use religion as proof God DOES NOT exist. I think you have to reach that conclusion from a full world view of everything. You can't just say "well religion sucks therefore God doesn't exist" that's not qualifying anything.
However, I do think religion is controlling. It puts limitations on people regarding things that have no impact on good or evil. I'm pretty sure there are sets of people so religious, so tied to the church or their particular God, that almost everything they do revolves around it. If that's not control I don't know what is.
Religion SHOULD be a clear net good because if people practiced what they preached there would be more empathy and compassion in the world. But I don't think people do practice is. Sure, some do. But not enough. I'm not sure the scales do tip on the side of good. It's more like somewhere in the middle grey area. But that's just my opinion, not gospel!
I shall now worship at the altar of the Veg. Instead of wine and communion wafers I'm going with cake and recession margaritas and praying to the holy Airstream.
ReplyDeleteI just don't get organised religion. I'm all for picking the faith that works for you but don't shove it down my throat or tell me that I'm evil for not believing the same way. It often seems those that scream bible quotes (or other religious tomes) and denounce others are the least 'religious. How about just be a decent person fuckface.
Being sick I've been repeatedly told that if I prayed more I'd get better and that I got sick because of my godless ways. WTF? Some people are just arses. They just try to hide their arseness behind religion. And don't get me started on those dicks who thank God for their oscar. Yeah if God exists giving Gwenyth Paltrow an oscar is the priority, not curing cancer or smiting the Kardashians. Sheesh!
Agreed. He has bigger problems to deal with than saving us individually every time one of us makes a mistake. Still, anyone that uses religion as a reason why things do or do not happen needs to be kicked in the arse.
ReplyDeleteWhen I think of God, I picture a big infinite alien being capable of holding every infinitesimal speck of rotating space dust, every fluctuating quantum state of quasi-particle blinking in and then out and then in, every past, present, and possible future state atom of every star of every galaxy in its mind at once, with full and relaxed concentration, simultaneously and forever.
ReplyDeleteIts monstrous. All I can say is: Thank God Its On America's Side.
And Canada! God doesn't draw these petty distinctions like we do.
Dude, I hear that huge alien guy also respects FRANCE. Now THAT is a divine entity!
ReplyDeleteSorry France.
I actually love France. But it's so good for target practice too.
What's that saying? Going to church doesn't make you any more a Christian than going to the garage makes you a car? Lots of people who are "Christian" tend to pick and choose what they believe in the Bible and that makes no sense to me.
ReplyDeleteSo being gay is wrong? Ok well what about selling your daughter and slavery? They're ok?
WTF dude.
And then people get all mad. Organized religions tend to exclude. "My invisible man is better than your invisible man."
I also agree. I think SOME people go to church because they've been brainwashed into thinking that's what they need to do, or doing it will make them a better person by default and it's not true. Plus if you're religious why can't you praise God anywhere? At home, the pool, the supermarket... he's meant to be everywhere right?
ReplyDeleteand the people said . . . amen!
ReplyDeleteGosh, I'm so far behind on blogs - but excellent post from last month or whenever you wrote this :)
ReplyDeleteI'm an atheist, too, and just like you, how I came to be one was by reading the Bible. The conclusion I came to is that book, or people's interpretation of it, is just bullshit.
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad when I read about other atheists, or when I read posts from other atheists!
Claire: And then said, "Where's the wet bar?"
ReplyDeleteSquirrel: It's nice to see someone else is as lackadaisical these days as I am. Well done! :)
Reason: I gave up long ago trying to understand people's reasons for believing anything and decided to chalk it up to insanity. Mine or theirs? Who knows? I know which side I'm on though!
OOHHHHMYGOOOOD (heh no pun intended) it's like you jumped into my brain and snatched the word right outta there. Well, I'm spiritual (I think there's a god/God/gods), not Atheist, but still. Religion is being used for all the wrong reasons and the Bible is pretty ridiculous in some cases to me. Like: no playing with pigskin. There goes football. And no homosexuals. There goes NPH (Neil Patrick Harris). But yeah, I agree with you where religion is where people either hate or love you and it's so messy because we think everyone is wrong but we can't know because yaddahyaddahyaddah. Super long comment, sorry. I could talk all day about this stuff.
ReplyDeleteAwesome blog. Kudos *head nod*
Hey there iLove. Yes religion is one of those things where you have an opinion one way or another. And mine's "the other" I guess. I don't know how we all began - how the universe all began - but I have more belief in the scientists' theory than any "one being made us all". Unless that one being is an atom. I don't know!
ReplyDeleteI do know that no god would ban NPH unless he was an evil God. :)
Wow.
ReplyDeleteI love this and could not agree more.
Nice job.
I'm shocked that so many people totally or partially agreed with you. I'm one of them to be sure.
ReplyDeleteI am an atheist. I do not believe in a heaven and hell god. I do not believe in any "god." I think any atheist with a minimum IQ can beat the heck out of ANY christian in a debat on the subject. BUT, that doesn't mean I'm not spiritual. I think people should do the right thing, because it's RIGHT.
What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
-Christopher Hitchens
Heck, I believe in God. And I agree with the Vegetable Assassin.
ReplyDeleteIn pretty much everything but the insignificant details - people are too hung up on those! I mean, come on.
"God does not exist."
"God exists."
Two unprovable assertions! Pure leaps of faith - both of them. Irrational, to take it that far. And frankly, a waste of time to debate the irrational person who has overinvested so much personal stake in an unprovable assertion. Anybody who thinks that what they believe about the fundamental state of reality alters the fundamental state of reality - in either direction! - whoa. Those people are the mean kind of fun to have at parties.
"Proof of God does not exist." Now there's a sweeter statement. One I'd make every day, and I'm pretty confident no one can gainsay me. See, the reason I get so great with atheists is because neither of our personal leaps of faith away from pure skepticism conflicts with observable reality. And ultimately, observable reality is where I interact with people. It's the best place I know!
And that's why I say I agree with you, Veg: because the realities you point out here are far from insignificant, and all too readily observable. They matter a great deal. We need to be banging out danger and warning. Because those who interpret religion as primarily a means to make this life unlivable (or less livable) use it as a wedge and a weapon against those who don't. Those for whom religion's main use is as a hittin'-stick to control others lives don't limit themselves to true believers when they swing that stick around. That's not near a big enough stick for who they want to hit. They want the religion stick swung by government, and aimed at everybody. They want to enforce a moral order, where God is Caesar and heretics be not only damned, but prosecuted.
Of course, not all theists want that. Rational theists who value secular liberty make common cause with agnostics and atheists. We have all made a good bit of progress away from theocracy, but the hollering from certain quarters is still all in favor. Those opposed need to band together and pull together against that kind of impulse. It's us vs. them, and I know where I stand.
But let's be clear about the problem: the common root of all intolerance-based misery in the world isn't religion. Ultimately, it's xenophobia. The need to feel secure in one's chosen camp and demonize the other. To come up with some aspect that you can judge the book by - any aspect will do, but some are more obvious, others more powerful - draw the line on that aspect and say: this person is not like us. We cannot trust this person, we do not know them, we should not try to know them. This person is not worth knowing, is dangerous to get to know. The stranger who is not like us less worthy of human consideration than we are. They might as well be called inhuman - devil, animal. Slave. Not a person. In the end the one not like us is the enemy, and this attitude makes compassion for the enemy an offense.
The human map has lines drawn all over. Religion. Patriotism/nationalism. Ethnicity, race. Gender, class, region - even neighborhood. To use any of these aspects to draw lines of hate and enmity is to misuse them. And we must be wary, for misuse of religion is particularly powerful, particularly dangerous. Moreso powerful I'd say than any of those others, and that holds true whether it is being misused or merely used.
Even people who believe in God badly need to beware of religion's misuse. I'd say people who believe in God ought to feel that much more a duty and an obligation to confront their coreligionists on religion's misuse.
That's an entry all on its own there, Joe! :) And as usual you speak the truth, in your own distinct way. This is also the reason I have no problem with religious people in theory - it's not my place to state what is real and what isn't because what do I know, or indeed any of us. We all just looked at the facts and made up our own minds about what we believed and where it all falls apart is, the respecting other people's views thing. Now you know my views on God. They're pretty straightforward. But I don't begrudge anyone the right of the comfort or power their God gives them. I always respect that right. And I expect the same consideration from die hard religious people. In fact, it's the real spiritual people who do give that respect. The ones who don't tend to be the half-baked zealots who haven't thought things through.
ReplyDeleteI think I'm saying, I agree with you, bud. Even though I had to read it three times because your brain's too big for a first time grasp. :)
I want to marry dogimo's post. But not dogimo.
ReplyDeleteI don't know man, you might get along! So you're both boys who like ladies, big deal. :) You're both in Cali as well. I hear wedding bells.
ReplyDeleteI am so happy after reading this that I could do a little tap dance, if I had some music and some tap shoes. It's good to hear so many others express the same feelings about religion that I have.
ReplyDeleteI went to church for a while, when I was a child, just for the social contact. By the time I was 14, I thought it was a bunch of hogwash, but thought I should hedge my bets and try to sorta kinda believe in god, at least a little. In the meantime, I was fascinated by Greek, Roman and Norse mythology and read lots of books on those subjects. The more I read, the more I saw that the Judeo-Christian myths seemed no more plausible than the others. Then, in a full out determination to make up my mind, once and for all, I read the bible. Game over! I've been comfortable and confident in my 100% Atheism ever since. I do, however, believe in the "golden rule" and try to abide by it. That's all we need, people! (Unless, of course, you are a sado-masochist. Then it gets dicey.)